The Great John Calder Interview, Part l

This interview was begun February 25th (All recordings may soon be available online for free)

ROX: Today is Burgess’ birthday, and I was wondering if you had a comment on that. Anthony Burgess...A Clockwork Orange.

JC: Well, I knew him quite well, but I don’t think I’m going to comment on the anniversary.

ROX: Okay. I see from the bits of an interview I have here...you’ve been described as a Luddite of sorts, and I remember the last time I talked to you (Parts omitted)...we were talking about Beckett...and you had mentioned that if there was anyone who was anti-civilization it was Beckett.

JC: No, I wouldn’t say he was anti-civilization; I would say he’s anti-globalization.

ROX: Okay.

JC: I mean, I think he’s against the sort of society of...consumerism...and just...don’t worry about the future...today’s alright.

ROX: And how about the description of yourself as "a romantic gentleman of the old school...a complete Luddite?"

JC: I can’t really comment on that...someone else’s opinion.

ROX: I was wondering...with Trocchi...who you published...and Burroughs...how do you account for the difference in sales between the two...the popularity between the two...the difference between the two?

JC: Well, Burroughs wrote quite a lot; Trocchi wrote very little. I mean he was hooked on heroin from...from the early 1950s...and after that he did very little.

ROX: As far a publishing goes today, you had mentioned in some interview I read somewhere...about how...you described yourself as a cog in the wheel...and y’know...cogs get worn out

JC: Well, that’s true enough

ROX: Heh, heh...where do you see...is there a future in publishing...I keep hearing about

JC: There’s a future in publishing, but not necessarily my kind of publishing.

ROX: Right...

JC: I think...at present...there’s very little future in conviction publishing. In other words, publishing that you believe in...and what you believe is good. Right now publishing is done by people who know little difference between one book and another. The only thing they’re interested in is how big the profit is.

ROX: What I’m trying to get at is...I recently heard Philip Roth say...and I’ve heard others say this also...that a few years into the future there won’t be any people reading novels at all. What’s your take on that?

JC: I don’t think that’s true at all. We still read what the Greeks and the Romans did...millenia ago. It’s not an enormous number of people...but there will always be interested people interested in the literature of the past. And...to a certain extent.. you know... what is interesting, different and new that’s coming along.

ROX: Is it possible that people won’t be reading the literature of the past though...in the present form? Will it be all in this electronic form?

JC: Well, yes, but what you get electronically is totally different from what you get from the printed page. The concentration is different. The way you think about it and receive it is different. And, on the whole, information arrived at electronically passes very quickly to the vine* and passes away again. I do think...I do...most people do agree with me...electronics is gradually killing the human brain...

*brain?

ROX: Sure is...for sure...

JC: ...the potential...I mean we’ve given up the human brain to machinery...’cause it’s doing ____all for us I mean...how many people today can do a complicated arithmetic in their heads?

ROX: Yes. Hmm. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I had read something about...I know about your love for opera. And...last time I had spoke to you...you had mentioned to me you were too old to travel...you weren’t going to travel...I was talking about bringing you here...

JC: Well, I travel, but not great distances

ROX: Okay. Would you travel a great distance if there were some new opera by, say, Rossini...who also has a birthday coming up on the 29th**...playing some place distant. Would you force yourself considering the opera...

**February

JC: Five years ago I would have. Today I’m a bit too old, and I’ve got a heart condition...and the chances of it killing me are a bit too big...

ROX: I see. I see. Sorry to hear that. What are you going to be involved in, by the way, close to home...in relation to the upcoming celebration of Beckett?

JC: I’m being invited to talk about him here and there. I’m involved in a theatre company that is performing his plays, called the Godot Company. Which is ready to go to New York in the autumn.

ROX: Oh good.

JC: I’m not going with them, but I’m negotiating it. It’s a group of veteren actors totally believing in what they’re doing. They’ll be performing for some weeks in New York. They’ll also be doing a university tour. So...I’m very involved in what they’re doing.

ROX: Is that Shadow Arts Council that...

JC: That came to an end, I’m afraid. Peter Hall became chairman of it. It was called something else before him; he changed the name to the Shadow Arts Council...and then, more or less, killed it off when it was no longer much use to him. I’m responsible for that in a way ’cause I _______ made him become chairman***...and I wish I hadn’t.

***Still trying to decipher this; my British neighbor hasn’t a clue.

ROX: I know I’m jumping around here...um...I recently wrote a piece on James Barrie...the Oscars are coming up...the Academy Awards...and Finding Neverland which is based on the writing of...

JC: ...a picture which... I’d rather quite like to see

ROX: Uh huh...well, in my article about the... Finding Neverland...the piece on Barrie...I’d taken the point of view that the young English soldiers who went off to war...WWI...which I know you’re very very familiar with...connected with...that they went off with the attitude...like with Peter Pan...the literature at the time...that it was better to die young...not to age. Do you agree with that?

JC: Well, I’m not...I think the people who go off to fight wars...really expect to come back...or...they know there’s a big risk. They certainly didn’t expect the terrible carnage of the First World War. You know, hundreds of thousands killed in a day. (Inaudible.)

ROX: But was this attitude in people’s heads at the time...it didn’t...you’re saying...that...

JC: I think people just felt they had to do their duty to their country...and go off and fight...when they were asked to. Without particularly thinking of why they were fighting.

ROX: In speaking of fighting, in speaking of wars...what about the way in which the United States is going about dealing with what they’re calling...this so-called War on Terror?

JC: Well, I’m totally opposed to it.

ROX: Yes.

JC: And also to the British government backing up...Bush. I don’t believe they’re carrying the country with them at all.

ROX: Is there anything...if you could get up and make an announcement to the British people today...on a loud microphone...is there anything you would urge them to do...vis-a-vis what we’re talking about with the British government?

JC: I would tell...say get out...and apologize. I mean you can’t put right a wrong...but you can at least say you’re sorry...you made a big mistake.

ROX: Speaking of mistakes...I’ve got a few notes here I’m dyin’ to get to.... When that book came out As The Story Was Told...you described...you said you had made some "ghastly mistakes"...in relation to The Story Was Told.... Could you tell me what "ghastly mistakes" you were talking about?

JC: I made many ghastly mistakes...haven’t we all...(jumble of words) It came out at a time when I was very busy...I didn’t proofread it myself...and the people who did...did a very bad job of it. It’s full of misprints and...and so on...I’m rather ashamed of that book...and I was doing it as quickly as I could.

ROX: Okay. Let me switch to something you’ve got to be very proud of.... When you were connected with Jerome Lindon...vis-a-vis all the torture...which is coming up again...once again...on the front of the press...torture abroad...the outsourcing of torture by the U.S. Can you tell me something about Jerome Lindon...your time with him?

JC: Well, I knew him very well, but...he was not...a very warm person. Very reserved. Rather cold. I knew him for....what?...forty odd years...saw him frequently...but he was always very formal with me. (Pause) I mean friendly, but formal.

ROX: I’m naturally...a big big big fan of Beckett’s...I’m dying to ask you a million and one questions. Perhaps I can leave it open...and have you just say something about Beckett for my readers...with this upcoming anniversary.

JC: Well, it’s interesting. That usually when a writer dies the reputation goes down for a bit...then comes up maybe ten...twenty years later. That hasn’t happened with Beckett; his reputation’s gone on growing. Unlike Joyce’s...it did go down. It came up again later.

ROX: I don’t want to wear out my welcome with you here. I’d like to have a shot at coming back to speak with you again if I can...

JC: You can.

Parts of interchange omitted here.

ROX: Oh, that’s wonderful. On a very personal note, I’d like to know, John, if you’re still open...I know you’re publishing way way way less titles than before...per year...but are you open to publishing new writers (Part omitted) ...

JC: It’s like an old man buying a puppy. The puppy...he’s not going to be very happy about this for very long. (Pause) I mean I think it has to be for younger people with their own enthusiasm to now take on new writers.

ROX: Yes. (Parts omitted) The Edinburgh Conference that you had put on before...I read all the time about how nothing’s been done like it before or since. Is it possible, John, that something could be attempted...at this late date...along the same lines...

JC: It could be...but it would cost very much more. In those days, writers didn’t have a public forum at all...and they were willing to go for their expenses...to meet other writers...to talk...and exchange views and so on. But then...when they were in front of a very large public of thousands...they became like actors. They found people hanging on their words...and ageeing with them...sometimes disagreeing. So they wanted...that sport...and if two of them were arguing...each was trying to play to the gallery...who’d get the biggest applause...they became like actors in a way.... They became starts. ’Cause usually a writer’s on his own...very seldom meets his readers...and the chance to come out in public...and talk about their ideas, their work, their ambitions...they’re attitudes...in public...and put them to the test...was something quite new at the time. Now it happens quite frequently...and they feel themselves...a bit of film stars...want to be paid as much as possible...simply to put in an appearance. Those days it was something quite new. (Pause) When writers were invited to appear in public...they didn’t expect to be paid anything...they were rather pleased. But it didn’t happen often. I got them a very large public, two and a half thousand people a day. And you see, again...they were as...personalities rather than as writers.

ROX: Uh, huh. I’ve got to go off in a slightly different direction...I’ve got one other question I want to ask you before we close. I write a lot about politics, and resistance and dissent. And cultural politics. And the question of violence...comes up...as far as it being, or not being...a solution to the world’s problems today...

JC: Violence is never a solution.

ROX: Excuse me?

JC: Violence is never a solution. The only excuse for violence is self-defense.

ROX: Okay. And...you say the same thing...one of the things that comes up all the time...is that people cite...with the United States...that the anti-slavery Movement had to fall ultimately on the shoulders of John Brown...and Washington himself...and Patrick Henry...you know, had to resort to violence. But you don’t see a parallel need today...in that regard?

JC: Well, I’m afraid it comes down to...politicians...and the addictive...force of power. Anybody who gets power wants to hang on to it and wants more. Just as people who get rich want to get richer; they’re never satisfied.

ROX: Well, I’m very satisfied, John...talking to you. I really appreciate your time...your heartbeats...and thank you so much for so much. I look forward to talking to you again, if I may.

JC: Righto!

ROX: Alright. Have a great...

JC: Thanks.